SPEAKER_02 0:14

Welcome to How's Your Stool, the show where we pull up a stool and find out if things are really going. Not just the gigs, not just the music, but what's happening when the amps and the lights get turned off. Because if you ask a musician how they're doing, you'll get one answer. I'm your host, Dave Randall. Today I'm sitting down with the enigmatic Keith Ford. So let's get a stool sample. Keith Ford, I am so happy to see you here today. I'm happy to be here. Thank you for driving out here on a beautiful Sunday afternoon to talk to me about uh the trials and tribulations of being a musician and uh cheers. Cheers to you. Thank you. Non-alcoholic to all of you. It's non-alcoholic. Ah, there we go. So Keith, I I honestly um I don't know a ton about you. No. I I I I I know I know you've been in the music scene around for a while, but we never crossed paths at any of our gigs. I I stopped gigging just before the pandemic started.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

So the there's a reason for why a lot of folks kind of go, I know that guy's name, but they don't really know me. And that is that in 1990, I left and went to Ontario. Okay. And I spent most of 20 years there. And so when everybody else was so I was playing in the eighties and and before, and then when 1990 hit, I got offered a job, ended up in Toronto, and then was kind of there except for three years that I came back. Okay. So I continued doing music there and working, whereas everybody here was still just playing and hanging out and getting to know each other. And then I came back about 12, 14 years ago. Okay. And uh and just started picking it up again, finding out who was around, what I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yeah, it was like all of a sudden your name started appearing on the on the ads and stuff. Yeah. Um, and I can un say I I haven't had the pleasure of coming out to see you live yet. Just back in those days, there's that m schedule and stuff, but I promise I'll come out.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Oh, you should, yeah, yeah. And and and some of the places I play now are real destination spots, like the House of Jazz, yeah. Yeah, that's a great case. It's a gorgeous, gorgeous venue. I've been there for three years, like twice a month, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

It's uh and people who go there are coming to listen to music. Yeah, they're not yeah, it's not just a bar to say.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

And what's nice what's nice about the House of Jazz is that it it each week, there'll be a handful of regulars, but each week that I play there, it's a whole new crowd. It's like playing in old Montreal or something where it's just tourists that come. Like, I don't know where these people come from. And it's got and it's sold out, it's like reservations only every time I play, and it's like that most nights on the weekend for all the bands. And you it's so you never tire, and they don't ever tire of you, and it just feels like you're playing a different place every time you go. So it's that's a great feeling, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Yeah, when it's fresh, when it feels like and and it's especially that aspect that uh people are there to hear you. Yeah. I always tell this story. One of my favorite so you know, when I was doing the pub thing and that mostly it mostly the pub thing when you notice like who's listening, oh yeah, who's not paying attention at all. There's uh a scene in a movie. The movie is uh inside Lewin Davis. Okay. Uh it's a Cohen Brothers movie, it's about the early folk music era, Greenwich Village in New York, and um uh uh it stars Oscar Isaac as Lewin Davis. And anyway, he's just a struggling musician trying to get whatever gigs he can. But the opening scene, he's in a typical Greenwich Village, early 60s smoky uh venue, and he's just sitting up there, just a guitar, a stool, and microphone, and and the crowd, the audience is dead quiet. They're listening, and they they emphasize that by focusing in on a cigarette on an a in an ashtray. And the person who has forgotten about their cigarette, they're so intent on listening that the cigarette's got a huge long ash on it. Such a great scene. It's one of my favorites like, oh man, I just to play to crowds. Um, yeah. So anyway, it's not about me, but but that's just that's just one of those things that I can truly appreciate is when you got people who were there to to hear you and uh and also let you do your thing.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

And and I've played to rooms, you know, that were just a a chore. I mean, I when I was in Ontario at one point, uh just before I left to come back, I was in a um I guess 70s rock tribute band, and uh I was I was I needed money. I looked around to see who was making the most money on the circuit. These guys were it. They didn't need a guitar player, it all came together and we started playing, and I played a lot and made good coin with them. Um but you know, it was a cover band. But uh we played in a this is out of London, Ontario, and we played a small town called Petrolia. And that area of Ontario, west west of London, was the first place they discovered oil in North America. And as you drive through that area, it smells like oil, and you see these small oil derricks still working really in the in the front of these farms. And uh, and so there was there's like oil springs and petroleum and a few other towns, and we got to this bar we'd never played before, and we set up and we had the full system lights and sound and smoke and lasers and massive drum kit and big sound, you know. And uh the bar was at the along the back uh of uh facing the stage, and there was a door here with a doorman, and there were two people at the bar, two women, and we were like, Is this it? Like you know, we would um so they're like, Yeah, well go and do your first set. And so we we I play the first song, and it's massive, and it's huge, and it's like a stadium thing, and and all you heard at the end of the song was the doorman going, Oh no, and I and I was like, and I walked over to him and at the side of the stage, and I called him over and I said, Can you not clap? I said, That's the saddest sound, and he said, Don't worry about it. He said, Your second set is gonna be crazy, and I was like, How is that possible? And he said, There's a uh a tractor pull happening tonight, and he said, Everybody's at the tractor pool and they'll all be coming on their tractors later. And I was like, he's gotta be kidding. Well, he was right. By the time we were into the second set, the women were dancing on the stage, it was just mental, and the whole parking lot was full of John Deere's. It was uh sanding, yeah, yeah. But I've been in those rooms where and that's I actually spoke to somebody today about this, a friend of mine, Rick Keene. I don't know if he's gonna be. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we had a coffee, and Rick uh and I were talking about how you survive as a musician and what it's necessary. And uh we got on the subject of ego, and and my take on that is that ego, excuse me, ego is what gets you through those shows. If you don't have an ego, if you're insecure, those shows will crush you. And so and some people just end up not going any further because they just don't have that drive, that sense of of self, that knowing their worth, that feeling a confidence in themselves, which many people consider to be a bad thing. But as a musician, if you don't have that, that I'm here, I'm a rock star, and I'm gonna show you what I can do, those shows crush you. And and I've learned over the years that having that ego is what gets me to go on to the next song and do an even better job, and the next one and do an even better job. And so uh that's for me, I think ego, if you don't have it, boy, it's a tough road.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Well, I mean, just to get up there and play a song that you learned requires a certain mental capacity to say, I'm good enough, I'm gonna go up and do that, and uh, which is why it stings. I remember um playing locally here once, and I was up doing which is normally a crowd favorite, it's uh Desperado by the Eagles, and I I thought he did a on guitar, I thought he did a pretty good job, and I looked down and there's a young woman sitting in front of me, and she she starts making slashing motions across her room. So I'm like, This is like one of the most popular Eagles songs in the world. Why would you do that? And ironically, she is now out playing in pubs and stuff. I went to see her and I told her how much she'd improved since I last saw her. I did not try to slash her. But yeah, I mean it's uh so yeah, I definitely understand that feeling of you need to uh what's the expression? Buck up, yeah, go into it, and many nights turning to to the guys in the band going, paid rehearsal, guys. You know, let's just have fun, let's just do it. Don't worry that there's that there's not much of an audience.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Even now at the House of Jazz, I mean it's it it comes in waves. I mean, sometimes sometimes I have the the room and from from the first song, I can feel it. I can say, and sometimes I have that table and I have that table, and I haven't won these people over yet, and I gotta push my energy out into the room, and I have to try and get that to and fro of energy that creates the night. And uh and then there's other nights that they're large groups, they haven't seen each other in ages, they're only there for themselves because it's like a supper club, and so we'll finish playing four songs in a row and there's no applause, you know, and and we just look and we look at each other and we just smile because we know last weekend when we finished the first song, the place went nuts. So it's like it's not us, yes, it's the room. No, it's yeah, definitely. And so I all then that's my challenge then is how can I get these people to turn and start becoming interested in us, you know? And uh, and usually I have them, but like sometimes it takes a while. Sometimes it's like the last two or three songs uh of the night, and you're like, okay, finally won the room over.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

When there's enough alcohol been poured in. Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

And they're tired of talking to each other, like, oh, oh, there's a band.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

I don't know. Uh it reminds me of uh doing a pub. Um uh a pub down in Hudson whose name we won't mention, but um playing there one night and I was asked to start earlier, so it was still there were still people having dinner and stuff, and I'm yeah, you've been in that pub down there on and it's tiny and the stage is just big enough to stand. So I'm up there and uh, you know, I'm just playing some gentle, basically dinner music. And I finished the set and I said, Okay, I'm gonna take a short break, I'll be back and join you folks again shortly. And this woman who was sitting, like had her back to me and threw it, she turns and she goes, I thought that was the radio, which was kind of a compliment, but also no you didn't notice I was out there. Yeah, yeah. What you said about ego though is is something I have uh thought about and talked about with with people because um I it's it's that it's like a double-edged sword. You know, ego uh gets you to get out there, but it's also what hurts you. It's so you become kind of fragile. I mean, there are some people who have absolutely no I don't know what the right word is, but they don't feel the negative side of things. It's just positive. Go, go, go, go, go. Foolishly sometimes. But that's uh that's one of the tough things about uh about being a musician. You know, and I uh I'm I don't know how many non-musicians listen to our conversations here, but um I don't know how many people also just people who go out for an evening, look at the musicians and realize how much work you've put into it, how much you you you had a bad day, and you gotta go out and and entertain these people and make them feel good about uh about their evening and their choices. And um I think it's really a special, special thing that that is so nuanced in the overall, oh here I am, I'm gonna try and play music you like, I'm gonna do the best I can. But also it's like, how do you manage that energy level to keep it going? It's uh yeah, it's a tough thing.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

And it's and it changed it's changed for me over the years. I mean, you know, when when I was younger and there was some nerves involved as a you know, a teenager in early 20s, and then at a certain point, it just it just became more comfortable for me to be up there than in the room talking to people. And that's when that happened, and and it and I didn't notice it, it wasn't like an overnight thing, it just all of a sudden, all of a sudden now I'm like, wait a second, I I walk on that stage and I feel at home and I feel comfortable, and I can't wait to to to to relate to these people, you know, whereas before it would be sitting, you know, 19 years old going, I'm a little nervous about tonight's show, guys. Uh I haven't got that lit quite worked out. Now I walk onto the stage and and I just feel like I I own it and I own the room and it and it's uh I don't know, it just it seems to it seemed to have changed at one point there where I just thought that's uh you know, yeah, I'm more comfortable up there. And and that is something I I think that the average the average patron can't relate to. Because for for them to think about getting up in front of people and doing what of what we do, I think for them it's it's a it's it just it's it's insurmountable the fear that they have. And so they when I tell people like oh I'm more I'm more comfortable up there than I am talking to you right now, and they think I'm joking or I'm you know, I'm like, but it's it really is the case.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

Yeah, you're in your element. You're you got your guitar on as you get as your protection. You got a little facade there, but yeah, but yes, I I know what you mean. I mean I'm not a uh I'm not a like a social person. I don't just go out to bars to be in a bar. Uh these days I'll only go out if somebody I know is playing or something. But just to go out to a bar and hang out and be like that. So yeah, I was always like, oh, give me a guitar, let me go. Let me get let me get out of here and go go do something fun and constructive.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yeah. Um well I I mean I started young. I mean we came over from Canada Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

I want to hear that, but I'm gonna take you a little bit further back. Okay. Uh let's hear about where you where you you you came from. Sorry, everybody, just because I yeah, we're kind of kind of rushing in here, but so let us know where Keith Ford, where were you born, and uh we'll go from there.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

I was born in the Liverpool Maternity Hospital in Liverpool, England, which uh apparently is the same hospital that John Lenning was born in, but I was 20 years later. Um but um yeah, so I was born in Liverpool, uh very humble beginnings. We didn't have much money, and uh my father came from a very poor family, and he uh was in the the army and uh got a trade, met my mom, had a couple of kids, and uh the cavern club at the time used to have uh a rock and roll night, which my mom wanted to go to. Okay, and so she would drag my dad to that, and they had a jazz night, which my dad was into, and he would take my mom to the jazz nights. And so you know, the early years my mother told me she know she went to see the quarry man, and she remembers Pete Best being the drummer, and all the girls love Pete Best, and he was the best looking one in the band, and yeah, hence the reason he's not in the band anymore. And uh, and so you know, I was I guess I was brought up. My mom used to love to sing, she always sang around the house, and uh, and then my dad realized that Liverpool, the north of England, was you know, in the late 60s, wasn't doing well, and he wanted to better life for us, so he came over to Montreal and uh and uh found a job with Air Canada and rented an apartment in Lachine and then flew uh my mother and myself and my brother over. Okay. I was six years old, my brother was eight. And um at the time uh you you pay baggage taxes, uh, you know, with your free passes, and at the time it was eight dollars to fly. So uh and my grandfather, my my mom's uh father, uh got all these old uh tea chests, wooden tea chests, and packed all of her stuff that she wanted her that she wanted to take with her into that and ship that over. Um and we were able to do that with Air Canada, so everything came over and we had this little apartment. And I remember I uh when I was eight, so I'd been here for two years, and I just felt there was a lot of music in the house all the time, and I and I just felt that I I should have a guitar at eight years old. I was like Just like that, I I I need to get a guitar.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

And was there an influence while you're growing up in Liverpool? Like kids like we're gonna be the next Beatles?

SPEAKER_00 17:14

No, no, I see I don't remember much of that at all. It wasn't so like you know, but that's yeah, so like as I became you know eight years old and started listening to music and appreciating it more, I suppose. Uh and so there was a fellow that used to deliver the Montreal Star to the building that we lived in. Right. And because of where we'd come from, like electric heating didn't exist and everything was I was like I'd been launched into the future. Uh be a I'd never been in an elevator in a building, and you know, so I used to go and play in the elevator all the time. And I would when he would come in, I would I would follow him around and go up to all the floors and help him deliver his papers. And he told me one day that he had a guitar for sale, and uh and I said, Well, how much is it? And he said, It was twelve dollars. Oh wow, and yeah, we had no money. And back this was you know, 1969, and yeah, and my dad, my mom had just given birth to my sister, and you know, and we had nothing. And uh, and he was working and trying to trying to get through life, and uh, I begged and begged and begged and begged, and he said, Okay, look, have him bring the guitar over. My dad knew nothing about guitars, I knew nothing about guitars, and he brought it over. My dad's okay, but if you better play this guitar if I buy it, you know. So we bought the guitar, the action on it was just horrible, nothing I understood at the time, but why is it so hard to play? You know, so I didn't really play it. And so uh a couple of years went by and we moved to my dad, my sister is now over here, and so we needed a bigger house. So we moved to Pierre Fall. And uh I got to Pierre Fall and started going to school in Pierre Font, and uh one of the teachers w said she was going to be giving lunchtime guitar lessons with another teacher. Uh and uh and so I said, I I I'm I'm in, I want this, but I brought the guitar in, and they're like, Oh, you can't play that guitar. So they found a deal somewhere where they could get a guitar with a cheap little strap and a pick for 25 bucks or something, and they asked who wants these guitars, and all the kids, you know, ordered these guitars and they started the lunchtime lessons, and I started taking lessons just learning basic, you know, G, C, E, uh for a month or two, you know, and uh and that was it. And then I was hooked. Yeah, and I don't know if you remember the uh learn to play guitar in seven days ads on the back of comics. Yeah, yeah. I think I've seen that. I sent away. I put my dollar, I got my parents to help me, I put my dollar or whatever it was in an envelope and sent it away, and I got a book with cords and a pick and a few other things, and uh that so I was 10. Uh by the time I was 13, uh I was playing high school dances and getting paid. Wow. So I did uh John Rennie High School, played there, yeah. And uh and I'm still in contact with uh with the drummer from that band whose name's uh Arnie Oliver. He's out in uh PEI now. Okay, I know that name. Oh, you would Arnie was in uh Lyrock, okay, uh you know, Randy Bowen, all those things. Yeah, you know, that we were all that crew, that age group. Okay, and so we all knew each other back then. And I really, really, really wanted to play music, but my parents were dead set against it. And so they wanted you to get your education get a job, get an education, get a job, have a different way of life. And so they kept pushing back, pushing back. So in in that 13 to 18 period, I saw all my buddies, Arnie and and all these people, uh, Randy, and they started playing in these bands, and they're I would go and see them in the clubs, you know, and I was like, I really want to play in a band. And I was getting really frustrated because I was I you know I'd been forced to go to CJEP, and then I dropped out of CJEP, then I was working, and I'm thinking, well, what am I doing? This is crazy. And I met uh a guy named Richard Kurek, who was older than me, and he had been in a band called Firefly, and the one of the early bass players in that band was Sash Jordan. Oh yeah, okay, and and so uh I met Richard and we hit it off, and he became like my musical mentor, and he lived in NDG and he had a studio in the basement, and at one point I needed a place to live, and so he threw a mattress down behind the Hammond organ, and for 25 bucks a month I lived on that mattress behind the Hammond Ogan, and we would record every day. And and I and that was my like me, that was my rock school. Like I did that for like uh almost two years with him. Yeah, and every day listened to my voice, every day improved it, and every day worked on songwriting and and guitar technique, and I'd lay a solo down on a on a because we were writing original music and we had other players coming in from other bands, and I'd write a Solo, you know, and cre create this thing and then he go, Oh, that's amazing. He goes, Now I want you to go in and uh double it up with a harmony part. And I'd be like, What? I'd never done that before. So it was really a an amazing challenge for me to to be with him. And it within a few years, I was at a point where I could go out and really do something, you know. And so I started playing. And uh I was playing in a bunch of bands around Montreal, and uh I was playing with uh a band called Ache and Spanner. And we were that name and we were writing mostly original stuff, but we did covers too, and we were, you know, doing like you know, Station 10 and all that, and we were winning, you know, radio contests and recording stuff, and uh and then uh I went, I started a band. I then I played with uh Angel Forest and Angel and the Bad Boys, and then I was in uh uh I was in um band called the Whoopee Cats, and then we used to tour out into Ontario, and uh that's when Sean came in and Sean Donnelly, and I was playing with Sean and a few other really good players. Um that was a fantastic band. We were just a great rock band playing the circuit downtown, up north, everywhere. And then uh after that, I got I actually got fired from the Whoopi Cats when we were on the road, and uh uh because uh the bass player said it's it's either me or him, and they had two guitar players and they couldn't lose the bass players like well, sorry Keith, you gotta go. I was like, okay, sure. And so I phoned, well, I think where were we? We were in we were in Saint Georges de Beauce on the on the main border, and uh and I phoned uh I phon uh our booking agent. I said, Hey, you know, I just got fired, and he's like, What? And uh and I said, Yeah, well, I can are there is any other bands looking for a guitar player? And he said, Well, I know this band that seems to be doing creating a little bit of a stir, he goes, I'll call them. And he called them and he says, I got you now. He called me back at the hotel and he said, uh, I've got you an audition with them when you get back. I said, Okay, great. So, because this was a two-week stint in St. George. So I finished that out and came back to Montreal, went and auditioned, and it was a band called The Cast. And they had a a number one song on Showm FM on the top ten at 10 for three weeks. It was number one. ACDC's Thunderstruck was number two, and finally knocked this out of the one edition. But it was purely based on people calling in, yeah. And they had a big fan base, and uh so I started playing with them, and we were opening up for Gowan at the Spectrum and playing all the A-rooms and you know the Daggle Bag and Quebec and you know, up north, uh Bourbon Street, and uh but at this point I'd been kind of playing and on the road for about three years, and I was feeling a little burnt out. And so when I left that band, I took a job, just any job, you know, just to pay the bills, and then they offered me a position to open up a a distribution center in in Toronto for them. And so I went, sure, why not? I need a change. I ended up in Toronto, and that's when I left. That was like 91. Okay. And uh, and that's when everybody kind of went, Where'd Keith go? You know, and then and that's why there's that big gap. If everybody goes, I remember the guy's name. Where have you been? You know? And so I ended up in Toronto and I was working there, and then I started playing in a in a weekly gig at a pub, you know, just playing covers with some fellas and some folks, and and uh and then uh if I m ended up in tr from Toronto, I went to London, Ontario. The company I was working for got bought out, and I ended up in London and I was dating someone, so I went down there into London. Uh, and then I joined uh uh a Celtic band and toured for a bit with them, a band called Rant Maggie Rant, recorded a CD uh just to play something different. Yeah. And uh and then that ended for me, and then uh I started playing with that 70s tribute band and then made my way back to Montreal very quickly after that. And then when I got back, I I wasn't playing at all. It was Oh no, no. I I you know I didn't know the lay of the land, I didn't have any contacts anymore. I and I and I just kind of like, what do I do? How do I get into this? Is there is anything happening? Well, a lot of the clubs aren't here anymore, like venues closed. Yes. And then I uh got offered through uh I was dating someone who lived in uh in uh in San Lazare, I knew everybody in Hudson, and uh and I got offered a weekly gig at um uh the Cozy Cafe. Okay, yeah. And uh and so I used to play there every Saturday night, and uh Eric played Fridays, and uh and then uh then COVID happened and all the gigs kind of dried up, that was it, and I was like, oh great, I'm just starting to get back into this, and now we don't have venues anymore.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Yeah, that that devastated the yeah, it was terrible.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

It was a very strange position to be in, not knowing if we were gonna come out of it or not. And then, okay, well, now what do you do? You know, and you can't do what you do. Um and then uh that first summer after the first wave of COVID, we were allowed to play outdoors, and uh a fellow that owns um Studio 77 in uh Point Claire Village had come to see me play at the Cozy, and he said to me, Uh, why don't you come and play at the studio outside? And I was like, Well, do you have music there? And he said, No, and I said, Okay, and so one afternoon I went down there and set my guitar up and you know, and a microphone, and there was like maybe seven people there, and I played for a bit and got some tips, and uh and um he goes, Well, you want to do it next week? I went, Yeah, sure. Anyway, that turned into the most lucrative gig I've ever done. I it it started off with just a few people noticing that I was there, and people were starved for some place to go and be with other people and hear music. Right, and they would close off the parking lot and people would bring their own chairs, and they would just sit in the parking lot, and every week they would just stuff tips into this little cup that I had that eventually fell apart. It was a red solo cup, and it got me through uh financially. Uh they were the most generous folks, and then I started met another player, uh uh uh Glenn uh Miller, uh, who plays a percussion, and he and I started playing together, and then we built what we have now in Ford Miller. Ford Miller, yeah. And um, and so uh I stopped playing at David's, and David continued on and made a real good, real good series out of it. And he has tons of music there now. But that started out as uh, hey, you want to have a few years? Yeah. But uh yeah, it's so the there was a gap there where I I didn't you know everyone else was playing and everyone else was doing things and recording, and you know, Jeff Smallwood was just you know, he was getting all the gigs. He was getting all the TV shows, he was getting everything, you know. It was like uh he was uh but he we you know he earned it, he warrants it.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

So uh yeah, he certainly does uh stay pretty busy. Yeah I uh was chatting with him the other day. I was saying, I haven't seen you much lately, but I said the first time I saw you was 78, maybe 79, John Abbott beer bash you were playing with your Ben. But I was busy chasing the girl, so I wasn't really paying too much attention. But for some reason, somebody told me that's Jeff Smallwood. I was like, I just remembered his name, and he just and then roll ahead a couple of decades, and uh he's like a professional out there, and then I then I see him doing a bit on the uh that TV show there, the just for laughs gags. He's he's like always the rock guitar.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Yeah, that's pretty funny. He uh he did really well uh for himself, and then of course, you know, uh his time spent with uh Rach Voisin and uh and then now Céline Dillon. So uh and he's heading back soon to uh to France to start rehearsals for her run of shows in uh in Paris. And uh and that now I think has been extended into the spring.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

So yeah, being a professional musician is something I wasn't really conscious of when I started out. It was like you gotta be in the band, band's gotta be good, yeah, you gotta get lots of gigs and whatever. But when I'm I remember when the David Letterman show came on and the the Paul Schaefer, the late night band, and after like I was gigging and I was like going, that looks like just such a treat. You don't have to load in or load out, you get home, you know, you record in the afternoon, you're home for dinner, it's a daily gig. What a what a perfect scenario, and that's when I regretted not go studying music in school because I also knew you know you need to be able to read music and you know read composition and so on. But to play at that level, yeah. But uh yeah, it's so yeah, it was kind of a different take for me when I oh you can be a professional musician. Like I always knew there were studio musicians, but I didn't know anybody who was in a studio or recorded in a studio, but it's just was just a different path. Had I see one thing I've noticed about talking with you and with Randy and Sean, and you guys all have a s there's a similar um aspect to your stories where you you learned how to play an instrument, you learned how to play, and you got out there right away and played guitar. Well, I learned to play guitar in about grade 10 high school, so 77, I guess. And it just seemed like I kept working on it. And I had a bunch of friends who who also play guitar. We'd get together Friday, Saturday nights and jam stuff out, but uh the band thing didn't happen for me until into the 80s. Okay. And uh at that time my sense was oh you had to be a cover band. Like writing originals, like when you talk about how you were working on originals, even way back then, it's like I wish I hadn't, I wish I'd had that influence because that's where I'm at now. I don't want to be out in a bar playing covers. I've done it, and that's why I'm here. I have I I can make my own music on my own time and and I never release it, so nobody can criticize it. But um, yeah, I'm I'm very impressed, and I'm impressed too when I when I hear talk to young people in bands. There's a few of them out there who are working hard and working on their original music, and I I I keep saying that's the only way to go.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

You could well for me, COVID would that it was a two-sided coin. I lost all the shows and the gigs and the income and all of that momentum disappeared. But I found myself in my kitchen in the morning with a coffee and just an acoustic guitar. Whereas prior to that, when I would write, I'd be in a studio such as this with my keyboard there and drums and this and loops, and I was kind of painting with sound and creating the whole thing. And all of a sudden I was just playing my guitar again, which I hadn't really done just playing an acoustic guitar sitting around. And it allowed me having all of that time. I the w the way I I look at writing songs is that the songs are there already. Yeah, they're in a place somewhere, and they're whipping around in this universe, this ether world. And you have to put yourself in a state of mind where you can access that. However you do it, everyone's different, and then your your playing ability, your singing ability, your life, everything then colors that song to and you are the conduit which the song comes out, but now it's changed because it's you who who got the song. And if it was been somebody down the road, it would have been slightly different, but it would have been that song. And so COVID allowed me to find that place because I find that when I'm working, and I was working full-time that prior to COVID, uh I can't access it. I can't write. And and and and everything I try to write sounds forced, and and there's like walls around this place in my head, and all of a sudden the walls disappeared, and in that kitchen, I just started writing. And I wrote some of the the rawest, most close to the bone, close to the heart music I've ever written in my life. And I finally felt that I had found who I was in my songs, and it was only because I had the time. And uh and so th many of those songs ended up in on the recordings that I did in Nashville a few years later. Okay. And so um I met some folks who m talked about my music to someone else, and they came along and someone wanted to finance it, and all of a sudden, because I was at a point prior to COVID where I wasn't even sure if I was gonna continue this game. And I was driving shuttle for a Kia dealership, and I was like, man, this is a this is a retired guy's job. Yeah, I could do this forever, you know, and just not worry about gigs anymore, you know, and that's where my frame of mind was. And then when all of these songs poured out of me, I was like, Oh, what do I do with this? You know, this is this is stuff that I really liked. And then other people heard it, and then they're like, Well, we want to pay you, uh, give you the money and take you to Nashville. And I was like, Wow, and I like I had to take a breath and go, Do I really want to get back on this train? You know, because it it meant a lot of work and a lot of heartache, possibly, you know. Um and it's been both. I mean, I went down and recorded uh uh with some of the top, top session players in in Nashville, and I wow the sessions were incredible, and the music was great, and the songs finally found the you know the right treatment, and I came back and my management for a year and a half, I'd signed a management deal, and my management had uh did nothing. They were I was getting asked to uh they were trying to place the songs down in Nashville in movies and TVs, and I was getting asked to write, I got flew down and met with uh the head of uh publishing for Universal Music, and we had him he he loved my stuff, loved me, and he he started asking me to write songs with certain words in it, you know. It's like write, can you ask Keith? You know, they contact my manager, ask Keith to write a song with the word Sunshine here, this movie coming up. I want to play, you know, try and you know, submit a song for it. So I was doing this, but nothing was catching. And and after a year and a half, my record hadn't come out either. And I was like, okay, what's going on? And when I met with them, they said they never really had any intention of releasing my record. And I said, Well, well, why did I sign this manage this five-year management deal with you, you know, where you get 20% of everything that I and I'm like, wait a second. And so I said, Okay, then I said, I've held up my end of the bargain and you haven't held up yours. I want out of this management deal. Yeah, uh and they refused. They said uh as a matter of fact, they said, Well, if you want out, the original deal was for a small percentage of the publishing for three songs. That's what got me this deal. Yeah, I gave that away, and uh, and they said, Well, now we want, and I only recorded seven in Nashville, and they said now we want the same percentage of publishing for nine of your songs. And I was like, uh, no, uh, you know, why would I do that? I'm getting out of this contract, I'm not gonna give you money to, you know, and so then it turned into a battle, and uh, and it cost me thousands of dollars, you know, lawyer fees, and I but in the end, uh I owned all my masters and got all my songs back, and they own nothing of mine, and so that's when I started I took a bre a breather. So now the now we're like three years in since the recordings, nothing's come out, and I was like, what do I do? I need money now to to master, to mix and master the finalized versions of these songs, all the tracks were there, and uh, and so I found uh a young fellow I started working at uh at the Dollard uh Steves Music School, right? Yeah, and we hired this young guy who had just graduated from Recording Arts Canada at the top of his class, and he was begging me for a chance to do one of the songs, and I was like, No, I I you know I have other people asking me, and I'm looking at a guy over here, and you know, and finally he was just like, please, please, please, just give me one. So I sent him the tracks for one of the songs, and he like within a day came into work and plugged in the USB and went, listen to this. And it was amazing. He it was he was knocked it out of the park, and I said, Okay. I said, Well, do you want to do another one? And he's like, Yeah, and I said, Look, I don't have money to pay you. If I get paid from this, if I make money off this, I will pay you. I said, Are you willing to work that way? And he said, Yeah. So he did three songs real fast, boom, boom, boom, and I released those last year, end of last year. And uh, but the other four, because I'm not it's not something that he's getting paid for, and he's busy as a musician and he's in a couple other acts and he writes and does work, and he's kind of like shh pushed it off to the side a little bit. So now I'm like waiting for these other four to be done, and now I'm like, oh, maybe I need to, you know, do a GoFundMe or something just so I can say, okay, here's your money, you know. Yeah. But uh, but the whole writing thing for me, that's when it opened up in COVID for me. I just now I and I'm I'm still writing and everything is in the same kind of vein, and it's all me. Yeah, you know, it's it's me. And uh and uh but you know, I mean uh I'm not young anymore, and it's like, do I you know, because uh at one point they wanted me to move to Nashville and you know, uh live with other musicians, and I'm like, dude, you know, I'm not I'm in my 60s, I'm not I'm not 20 anymore. I don't want to do that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Oh, I think there's a new wave of retirement rock coming up. It's all guys like us who grew up in the 60s and 70s, and it's like uh now's our time. But yes, I I agree. Uh writing, um, and for me, not that I I've I've never written with other people, but writing here alone is is a very satisfying thing, whatever comes of it. Yeah uh a lot of times I'll start something and go, this is terrible. This is just so corny, I don't even want to hear it now. Um, but nevertheless, just the effort of going through it, and uh and I had to go through a transition, so yeah, I think it was through COVID as well, is when I, or just before I only ever worked with analog gear, and I thought I really should get into digital production and it's a game changer, so I was so pro-tools resistant, it's like, oh no, I don't want to work on a computer. I so I was up until a while ago using uh it's not tape, but it would record to a hard disk on a little platform over here, but it was all very, very old-fashioned, and um so I learned the tricks of the trade with digital. It makes things easier to record. It's just there's just a lot of help there. Um and it's uh but I still record, and I've only learned this in retrospect looking at documentaries. Um, a band I've paid little attention to when I was growing up, aside from their hits, but I didn't really care, was The Rolling Stones. And in like the last 10-15 years, I've just fallen in love with the Rolling Stones, everything that they did and where they came from. I I just I didn't like the bad boy image that they gave off during their days. But when I look back at it as a body of work that they did, and then I watched these documentaries about how they recorded, and you know, when bands recorded live in the same room together, they they'd get the rough tracks down and maybe do some overdubs, but they might finish a song in a night. Yeah, and I like that feeling, I like that vibe, which is why this setups here, whenever I can can get musicians come, let's just come in, hit record, and do whatever we want to do, you know, turn the freaky lights on.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

The Nashville My Nashville sessions were, and this is pure magic that happens only in Nashville, I'm telling you. I wrote the songs. I had I think I had eight that I'd chosen that I was taking down there, and I did acoustic guitar and vocal demos, that's it, for each of the songs, and we sent those to uh a fellow named Steve Nathan, keyboard player, piano player down in Nashville, and he wrote out the Nashville charts, the 145 charts. Okay, and uh and so with the lyrics, he did the charts for everything. And I went down, I drove down with my manager, and then the day we went into the studio, it's it's we had all musicians assembled, and uh it's two three-hour sessions with a break for lunch, and it's and it's all union.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

Okay, so you didn't book these musicians, they sort of came with the studio?

SPEAKER_00 43:16

No, so what what my manager had an apartment down there, so he knew he'd already done this before, and so uh he spoke to Steve and said, Look, Keith wants someone who plays mandolin and fiddle, and he wants an acoustic guitar player, he wants uh an electric guitar player and your cell phone keys, and we need a good bass player and a good drummer. Uh, you know, how about this, this guy, this guy, this guy, they available? And I'm telling you, it was like the top. And uh, and um we got there that day, and I I had uh an acoustic heart guitar with me in the in the control room, and they're all standing there, sitting there with their one, four, five charts, never heard the song before in their lives. And I played the intro, played a bit of the first verse, skipped to the chorus and said in the end I kind of want it to you know come a slow deny as it goes out that they're all like okay cool and they went in and all in there's all live in the in in the in the main room you know some sitting over in little booths but you know everyone's in the main room and I'm in the control room with a microphone like this and I hear in my in in the cans and on my head I hear the drummer counted in and we did the first song live off the floor that way and as it faded in my ears I thought that I had dreamt it I I was like what just happened yeah these guys had never heard the song before except for that little thing and they captured everything I wanted out of what they heard for that 30 seconds yeah and they played it and I was just grinning ear to ear and everybody's just going wow that was really cool you know and then and then you know the Wanda Vicks who's the um who plays fiddle and banjo and mandolin on on my track she's in the the Opry band uh she's one of the musicians in the Opry band and she came in and she was like you know with her southern accent she goes oh hey Keith what do y'all hear on this one you want a fiddle solo or and then there was dan um Dan Dugmore who's in his 70s and he's playing steel and I said well why don't you and Dan kind of trade off on this one and then they'd go in and while they're taking all of 10 minutes to record a solo somebody would go make a sandwich or a coffee and come back and then we'd come back in the room and we did that seven times that day. Wow and recorded everything in in six hours and uh we didn't get to the eighth song we ran out of time but that magic is unbelievable to because when you listen to the tracks it you'd think that this band had been rehearsing together or played on the road for six months or something you know it was honestly I've never felt anything like it before in my life these are the the best of the best and then when I started researching who I actually had in the room with me you know and then I was like oh my goodness like wow you know each one of them's got a discography of about two or three hundred albums you know and then you're starting to feel self-conscious about your own performance but but what one of the nice things that happened down there was that because they're unionized and they just show up when they're asked to and they play whatever is put in front of them and they'll do their best but you know obviously it if they're not into it it's hard. And they were so thankful that I had brought them something that it wasn't that new country pickup truck 22 year old you know thing. My stuff is more like Americana old school soulful and uh they said you know thanks for leaving your cowboy hat at home and uh and and the um and and that whole trip for me was kind of a validation because you don't know if you can play at that level until you play at that level and the engineer on the on the track he used to play he used to work for uh Sony for 25 years and he said everyone used to refer to him as the song Nazi because he just refused so much stuff you know songs would come to him and he'd be like no no no no and he said uh he said Keith I just want you to know he said you need to keep doing this he said this has been one of the most pleasurable sessions I've sat in on a long time and he said you you are there you belong here wow and that to me was my my success that was my validation that was like I didn't care if nothing ever happened with these songs after that I hear you because I I went okay I I I I all that ego that kept me alive all this time it was right I do belong yeah you know because it doesn't matter how long you've been playing and and you know how much success you have unless you get to that point where you want to be at unless you get there and prove something to yourself uh you're always kind of self-doubting inside of course yeah outside you're you're presenting yourself as the guy that needs to be there but inside you're like do I really rate you know and this this session just proved to me uh beyond a shadow of doubt that uh yeah okay all those years of hard work honing my craft playing terrible little bars being on the road not sleeping not eating all of those things have have paid off yeah yeah it's it's formed who you are yeah and and it took a long time you know some people reached that earlier in their life and their their career if they're lucky yeah but for me you know it took all of that to get me to the point where those songs came out and those performances came out and uh and that was just I remember it coming out of that for the next few days it was it was the country music association uh celebration so Nashville was not yeah and my manager was heading back and to driving back and I said look can I stay over at your place and just absorb some of this for a while I need to just I need to be here you know and I spent a few days and then I flew back uh just kind of handling did you ever think about moving there? Yes and no like they wanted me to they really did want me to to base myself out of Nashville because of everything that was going on creating a small little buzz you know but the problem with Nashville is that I am one of a hundred thousand that are just as good as each other that are all doing that.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

Kind of kind of like the Hollywood of music.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

Yeah it's it's tough. Yeah I they have the uh songwriters rounds where you go and each hour there's four songwriters on stage uh or five and each one plays a song and talks about it then the next one and the next one and so you end up playing three songs in an hour by the time you finish this and then a whole new set go up and they throw out everything's tipped down there. There's no no one's getting paid everything right so there's the tip bucket there. So while I was there uh we managed to get me into uh one of the writers' rounds and it's the first time I experienced that and uh I was like wow this is crazy I can't believe I'm in Nashville on a writer's round you know and uh at the end of it my hour I went and sat down I was listening to the next uh the next group and I could see the guys that I'd played with they're all over there they all knew each other and uh and uh I didn't expect to get paid I was this guy from Montreal who am I you know like and one of the guys walked up to me and goes hey man it was uh some really great songs uh I got you cash I said oh geez and he handed me my money and uh I didn't count I just put took it out of his hand I shook his hand thanks very much and then I sat down and my manager goes well what'd you make and I'm like $14 and that's Nashville so I had never heard of this tipping strategy.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

Yeah I do remember um before COVID I was uh booking the performers at the Chateau du Lac in Hudson and uh one guy came in once and said is it okay if I put a tip jar out and like you can put it out people here don't really tip it doesn't work that way.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

No the only place that that that has tip culture ingrained in them is Studio 77 in Point Claire Village. Really? And and it's like the they'll they have somebody that will walk around and say here put money in and and everybody throws cash in but there's nowhere else I put I recently played I don't play many pub gigs and I recently did a solo pub gig uh in Beaconsfield uh and it was during the the playoffs so there was a lot of nonsense and noise going on and I asked him can I put a tip jar out and he's like yeah sure so I put the tip jar out and at the end of the night I had five dollars in it you know whereas when when I used to when I used to play that first summer at uh at uh studio 77 there were hundreds of dollars you know like it it's a different thing it's and and it's so strange that that place just has that we created that tip culture there but it's not anywhere else and there's a lot of places that like House of Jazz there's no way they're gonna allow you to put a tip jar up yeah I the first time I heard of it was a drummer I've I've played with a lot named Martin uh he um he goes down to Nashville I don't know if he's done it recently but he was going down to Nashville he has a a a buddy who's like tours all the time and so when he goes sorry not Nashville I'm sorry Austin Austin Austin Texas and he said yeah that's just the way it is yeah so you don't get paid at the bar you it's whatever you call but people there that's the culture is to is to tip the musicians and say Nashville's Nashville's because they they do like the the people that are playing down on Broadway in Nashville make money um so they'll play they'll start at 10 a.m and they're playing and every bar in Nashville has a has a band and then they'll play for three hours they'll pass a bucket they'll run out in the audience and try and get as much as they can out of the audience they pack up they move to the next honky tonk another band comes in they play the next honky tongue they pass the bucket so they can make you know a few hundred dollars each in a day but you play yes possibly six to eight hours you know which is huge that's like playing three full time gigs yeah in a day exactly and they do this as often as they can and so it's a real grind down there and there's some amazing singers and musicians doing it. Of course yes but boy is it tough if if that's the only way you're gonna make money is to do that. And that's why I said to my management at the time I said I can't see myself doing that you know it's not something I grew up with you know in up here. Yeah and uh and it just seemed like too much of a grind and so many good players and writers.

SPEAKER_02 53:49

Well that's the other thing there's you you find yourself lost a bit in the crowd in a place like that because as you say it's it's kind of a mecca where musicians want to go.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

Yeah and the top players like there's some of the the players that are playing on my record uh you know Guthrie Trapp uh electric guitar player he's just unbelievable and he plays with with uh John Oates from Holland Oates too and he whenever Billy Gibbons from CC Top is in Nashville and puts a band together Guthrie is his guitar player and you know these are guys that they get all those gigs. You know what I mean? Like there's there's a clique there just like there was here for many years in the French circuit you know on the TV shows that Jeff was part of yeah there's this click that they get everything and they're the go-to guys you know right and so you're always operating below that yeah and you're hoping that you're gonna get a song picked up by one of the record companies. But the rec when I was in Claude's office in Universal he told me he had 72 writers on the books writing for him and so what he and this is where the record companies own everything now but they own the artist they'll do a 360 deal with the artist it means they get they get a piece of everything the artist does hats, shirts, tour, tickets, records, anything then that deal will be they're really hard these deals now they're they're like 90 10 deals so they're getting 90% the artist is getting 10. And they are getting 90% of everything the artist gets so there's no way their artist is going to make money unless it's huge you know unless it's a you know it's a big name. They also own the songs that the songwriters are writing. They only own the songs well yeah because they they they're on the books they're getting paid to write and so they're saying okay well you own a certain chunk but we own fifty percent of that and so they they get such huge dollars from from every artist and every song and then they own the radio stations and so then they plug their artists into the radio stations and so the machine now has become the record company. Yeah and you know imagine if if one record company has 72 writers writing for them in a week how many songs can you might get four hits super hits out of a out of a week you know what I mean like you know it's like monkeys on a typewriter something's gonna good is gonna come of it and these guys own the majority of what's happening you know and then then that one artist or that one writer who's written a song that's done well you know and Taylor Swift took it and made it huge and then another one Luke Combs and all of a sudden that art that writer now is becoming the go-to writer.

SPEAKER_02 56:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

And what they do down there is they write with others they they they set up right writing meetings. So they book each other they go okay hey I'm gonna come to your place at two o'clock on Sunday and uh we're gonna write and they sit down and you see all these guys on social media afterwards going oh you know me and Davy wrote a banger today and it's like I don't I couldn't do that.

SPEAKER_02 57:04

I couldn't I couldn't go you know I'm setting up a meeting with you uh and we're gonna write a hit this weekend you know but but that's what they do they they write and they write and they write and they submit and they and they try to to make it and it's that that tension down there that creates the what's happening but it's tough man it's tough because I I can imagine especially when you hear stories about uh I just read an article recently about like pretty much every song in the top 20 at least on the Billboard lists there's like four writers who write all those songs for Taylor Swift for you know like Lady Gaga for whoever and uh you wonder like so this kind of is a segue I've had with other people we talked about it was like so it's kind of a machine right and like yes there is a performer of let's say Lady Gaga and she's she's you know given it her all in this song but it's all been done behind her the music's been formatted and arranged and in the musicians and and and um though she would probably say that she has some input and control over the recording I but where where does the line now this I'm not trying to start open up this is a huge topic where does the line with AI come in because like as I said it in the uh typical case now as I said the the the the music's all prepared an artist comes in and puts there it's kind of like you know when they brand a an appliance or something they're all made in the same factory they just put a different name on it so I'm in no way um promoting AI but it's out there and you know there's just some music like oh this is AI like I don't I don't care it's not that good a song I if a human had done this it wouldn't have been that great a song it was just it's pop music it's it's what it is what I find with AI though there's a couple of things I'm not an AI fan I think AI has a place in let's say helping you automate your mix.

SPEAKER_00 59:13

Yes you know look as a tool yeah very much as a creative expression of something I think it it's lacking and the AI songs that I've heard are sonically and perfect but they lack soul and it you can you don't realize it if you don't know that it's AI what it is that you're experiencing but you you feel that I think and then afterwards when someone says oh no that was an AI song you go okay then you can recognize what it was you didn't feel comfortable with in that song and I think that musicians like myself and and others who go into a studio with a bunch of other musicians and you've written the song and you perform the song and you capture that performance in one go I think that creates something that AI can't do. It captures a soul it captures an energy a spark in a moment that it just it it's missing in AI and I think AI yeah there there are things that it can do that could help us uh for sure um but then again do we want that do we want it to be that easy the ease of use is sometimes what kills the art you know even if you're just using it for your mix. Yeah that ease of use is like well wouldn't you have appreciated it more yourself if you'd have actually done the mix yourself? Yeah you know yeah like is that really do you really feel wholly completely comfortable saying that's my this is what I've produced you know like if you're honest with yourself you know so and I know a lot of people are putting out some AI stuff you know they wrote poems and they're like oh now I can finally be the musician I always wanted to be well no you can't you can't you're not yeah you know it's not your voice it's generated based on a thousand different voices that you put in the style and that you wanted and it created this for you and and and all the music has been created for you because you said I want it to sound like this or that or this well that's not you the words are yours but the rest of it isn't you and I and I really have a problem with it and there is a pushback I feel right now against AI and I think it's good because I think we do need to set up some some some guidelines and draw a line in the sand that says okay this is not it should not be competing with what we do here.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:48

Yes and and and I don't think well certainly AI could never create your style of music because that's you and it is very down to earth there there's a realness to your to your but for pop music I I don't really care it is yeah yeah you know I I um I listened to uh uh a Rick Beato you must know who he is uh I listened to one of his shows a little while ago and he's talking about how many tracks are involved in in a recording these days he says a lot of these top 40 hits it's just about 200 plus tracks in there there's obviously not too many but you know the the relooping and processing and and and all the rest of that and like that too kind of takes away and then I I read an article on a very common technique in the studio uh I can't remember the exact I think it's quantizing or something where they align all the beats perfectly on the meter and I remember they the in the article well they they referenced um uh they took a Van Halen song yeah and played it quantize it it doesn't feel as it lost it and so this goes back to me saying that I like the old fashioned style it's got it's got blemishes it's got glitches it's got but it's real and you can feel that you can sense that you know no ai is ever going to play a bass line like James Jamerson you know what I mean like he was all about that human part of it yeah and and so in the sense where there are real musicians putting out real music out of the AI as a threat um the public in general are kind of naive and you know I mean even like when I when I was gigging at what used to frustrate me most is people come and say can you play this? Can you play this? And I'm like how about you listen to the stuff that I'm prepared to play. Stop telling me and I refer to them as the the iPod generation it's like I don't like the song click you know flick flick flick and and sit and and again going back to where we started with that that reference to the Lewin Davis movie you gotta see that opening scene it's just like that's when music was real and people felt it and listened to it and I don't think that'll ever go away.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:10

No but you're right I mean as far as the the pop music and the dance music uh it's all so tight and quantized and on on the one that AI you know it it it's if it's if it's gonna make a hit then it's gonna make a hit and it's already a music business and so the record companies are using that to make money well great at least they're not screwing over some poor sod you know like they're you know they it's like let them go make their money the way they want to make their money but there's a whole pile of people and especially in in in in I can speak only really from country music but there's this underbelly of Americana what what used to be country music has now been shoved over to this thing called Americana. Yes and what we have now is new country which is pop yeah and rap all mixed up into country but the people that are still playing country music are now classified as Americana musicians or artists and they are still making that music and they're still touring in in a bus and playing to decent sized theaters but they will never be the the big hit Luke Combs right you know all of those people Taylor Swift they will never be that but they are making their music and they just sit there and there is an audience for that because they are filling theaters and they're doing tours and Jason Isbell and the 400 unit uh Margot Price uh there's all these people that are just sitting there that are still playing the music but now the business isn't about them anymore. Right you know whereas that you know that music used to be the business. Yeah 20 years ago 30 years ago they would have been stars but it it's not about that anymore. And so I think that's where if AI comes in and starts doing the working in that region that's fine let them have that but those people underneath here that are writing the songs that make you feel Something that makes you cry, that make you laugh, that make you want to make love, that those musicians will always be around. And you know, we we talk about you know playing in the in the bars and and and the clubs and the pubs, whatever, and you don't necessarily have to be the best musician if you play the songs that everybody wants to hear. And that's the problem with the average person is that they don't care how good you are, so long as you play a wagon wheel, you know, and you can play it poorly, but they can sing along with you and they they're okay with that. And so, you know, it's uh it's it's to me, it's like it's that I find frustrating sometimes because you know the the average average person going to a bar doesn't necessarily or necessarily recognize what's good and what isn't good. And they're just like, hey, I love this song, these guys are great. And you're like, yeah, but he's singing off key. And well, yeah, but the song is so good. And you're like, oh, okay, I get it. You know, so you gotta get over that as a musician, as an artist who writes and and has uh pride in their craft, you kind of have to go whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:14

Totally on board there. It's yeah, it it it you to make it uh a couple of bucks, you have to pander and you have to play. Yeah, uh there is there's a couple of songs I've promised I'd never play again in my life, just because um I never even played Stevie Ravon, but every gig I'd go to play Stevie Ravon. I'll play really bad Stevie Ravon. They didn't care. As soon as they heard oh yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

You're their favorite new man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:47

Yeah. Although I'm I'm glad to hear that you you you feel that way that um real music, real musicians are still there. There's not the mega record contracts and deals, but you can make a living doing that. You can a satisfying living where you're not whipped into line by your management company or your record company. It's you put out what you want, and if you have the wherewithal, you can self-publish and get your stuff out there. Um rarely have to print anything in it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:22

It's tougher to do now, or not now, but it was always always been tougher to to tour in Canada because of the vastness and the separation. Yeah. Uh so you know, to go on tour, you gotta play a bunch of different venues. And you can only so many venues in Montreal, and there's only so then you go, then where do you go? Well, now we gotta go to Toronto. Okay, well, you you're on the road for six hours before you get to Toronto, and then where are you going? Well, now we're gonna go out into the small Ontario towns, okay. So now you're out in small Ontario towns. Now what do you do? Now Ontario's done. Okay, well, now where do I go? Well, I think Vancouver, you know, Halifax. Yeah. Uh whereas in the States, you can put a tour together in one state. In one state, and and and and and it it'll be mostly profitable, you know. Well, you don't have to drive far. And that and that's like why I think that that still exists in this in the US, more so than in Canada. Uh you don't see too many, like all of us when we were young, we get an old bus or a van and pile into it, and we take off for six weeks, and we didn't care. There were many venues to play. You know, I'd go off into Ontario and play Huntsville and Owen Sound and London and you know, wherever else that I, you know, up going up even further, up, you know, towards Wawa, you know, and the nickel and all up there, and uh, yeah, and then we go out to Saint-Georges de Beauce and all through Quebec, and you know, there was many, many venues. Well, those venues aren't there anymore. So even that has sh shrunk. So you have less venues further distance. So anybody in Canada who wants to tour, it's tough. And and so there are some places that have uh some companies, I guess you'd say, that have popped up, some services, which are um like home routes and and and places like that where they they book you into uh people's homes. Oh yeah? Yeah, and so uh so what they'll do is they'll say, Okay, I wanna you you come, you you contact them, you say this is my music, what do you think? Yes, I think we'll be able to book you in. I would like to do a tour through uh Ontario and come back into Quebec and then go out here, da-da-da-da, and I wonder like that. And they're like, Okay, not a problem. And then they contact their their list, their database of people who have homes that can accommodate 20 or 30 people in an evening. And they say, Would you host a show at your house? Yes, and the tickets are gonna be how much? They're gonna be $20. And then that person contacts all their friends and says, Uh-oh, would you come to the house tonight? I've got Keith Ford playing. Who's that? Well, here's his contact information. You can download his stuff, and he'll be playing on Saturday night at eight o'clock. And then you go and you play and you collect your your your ticket sales, and then you move on to the next place. And some of these places will even accommodate you if they can, you know. And so that has kind of sprouted up as a grassroots, yeah, uh savior to some of the smaller artists. Yeah. Um, but you know, it's it's it's it's a grind.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:21

Have you been to Newfoundland in your travels?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:24

No, I haven't been to Newfoundland. I went, I've been out to uh out to Halifax, out to Nova Scotia, and out to PI, uh, but I haven't made it over to Newfoundland yet.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:32

There was a music management company on the West Island during the late 70s and 80s, and that was like they got they signed on a new band that would be their modus aberrande, as they'd ship you off to Newfoundland for three months. And I I've heard so many horror stories of the the dives that they have to, you know, staying being put up in the bars hotel upstairs, and it everybody catches fleas or some other nasty, nasty affliction in those places. That said though, I would love to I haven't been to Newfoundland. I would love to go just just to experience the music. Um a Broad Street is uh supposed to be a special place to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:10

And but even then, like out in Newfoundland in the day back in the 80s, when all the rock bands, you know, the local rock bands were touring out there by bus and uh and there was uh a string of of venues, you know. There was uh the strand, I think was the name of one uh place that everyone, everybody I knew in Montreal that went out there played the Strand, and everybody went out there and played. And they all played the same uh places. And one of the one of the things was that because you used to uh take the ferry uh over, and there was a stretch of highway as you come off the ferry, apparently, that it was so windy that so many of the bands got their trailers and buses blown over and lost their gear, and it was like it was like how did you did you guys make it to the gig? Yeah, we did. Okay, good. But uh, but yeah, there's it it's always been hard for musicians to tour, even when there were many venues, it wasn't easy.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:01

I mean, yeah, yeah. I remember in COVID, I uh Blue Rodeo gave a valiant effort. They recorded, I can't remember where what the venue was. Um and about the tickets online. It was uh you know, a broadcast, uh internet broadcast. And it was pretty cool. I mean, they they they really nailed the show. Um, but there was it was funny because there's no audience reaction. And I'm sitting down here watching it on the on the big screen and and uh like that was awesome. Uh there's nobody clapping. Yeah, but you know, um true musicians are resilient and they um they'll try anything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:41

Oh, I tried doing some um some uh live stuff during COVID, uh you know, just to see if we could make some money out of it. And I remember the learning curve of how do we get how do we monetize this? How do we how do we actually get it out there professionally and you know, acquiring the gear and getting someone to help and the headaches and the things not working, and it was like I'm so glad that ended because I I saw this as this is where we're at now, and I was like, oh, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't I and it and it was the hardest thing because I I did one or two of them, and you would play, and there's no reaction. Because you're playing to the to the to the the ether world. Like you're is you know, well, the numbers say that everybody's signed on, but so it was it was very, very strange. And and I did not like it.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:40

No. Uh well, I mean, as a performer, you you feed off the energy that the audience is giving you. It's yeah, it that's what I meant with that blue rodeo one. It's like they had the energy up. I don't know what they were doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:51

Oh man, it's tough because that it's I are i I really do believe that when I'm when I'm performing, I'm pushing my energy out into the audience. Like it's almost like a physical thing that I'm doing. And there's some songs that are just songs, and there's other songs that are true performances that I'm I'm leaning out energy-wise into the audience, and they push back, and it's that tension that in where the energies meet that create that electricity in the room, and sometimes that energy doesn't come back, and it's tough. You finish the song and you feel like you've almost fallen, you know, because you've just pushed everything out and nothing came back. And during COVID, when we were doing those on online, there was no energy, and it was like, how do I prop myself up? You know, like drugs and alcohol. It was like, you know, it was uh, I I so you know I I was I I had such a hard time with it. It was so I was very scared, I was worried that this is where we were gonna be at because nobody knew when it was gonna end. If it was right, yeah. And uh I I really did not enjoy that. I know I did one or two, and then I told uh the people I was working with, I said, I I don't want to do this. I'm just gonna wait. I'm just gonna wait and see what happens. And luckily we were we're out playing again.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:10

So excellent. Um I'm gonna ask you one more question, uh, before we wrap up. What's one thing you would tell uh young Keith Ford?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:27

Wow. Uh I i if it's about music um I would say that there's a couple of things. One, I would say y y you you y you you should have gained that confidence a little earlier on. You know what I mean? You should have just found that if you could a little earlier on because you're gonna be okay knowing what I know now. Knowing what you know. But um as far as uh a young Keith Ford, um I uh I just felt uh I felt uh like i i on a personal level, and apart from music and just being me, being Keith, um, I always felt like I was scattered. Like I I I didn't always focus. Uh and I think I would ask myself to focus a little bit more to you know, I I was just living life and and wherever it took me. Right. And I think that that is led to me uh taking a little longer to get where I wanted to be. Whereas I think if I'd have focused a little bit more when I was younger, um and devoted more effort to one thing at a time, that uh even it was just music or a job or school or whatever it was, but I just I just whatever came across me, I was I was game for it, and I just kept doing different things, and you know, all of a sudden you get you're 65 and you're like, wait a second. Um but uh yeah, I mean, because uh you can't have regrets, you can't, you really can't. No, um and uh you know, everything happens for a reason. The life I led led me to this, led me to these songs, this time in my life, who I am now, and you know. Exactly. And I'm happy and you're happy. I'm happy with who I am and what's happened. Uh it hasn't been easy, and part of that has been because of my lack of focus and you know, my own stupid mistakes. Um, but I think if I had not made those mistakes, then that's exactly I wouldn't be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:28

Exactly right. Yeah, there's there's a lot of things they can look back on and go, if only I'd known, and but then uh you wouldn't be you today. No. And um I'm I'm glad you're happy with who you are. And I'm happy to meet you. It's been a it's been a pleasure sitting chatting with you. And you and um you're still out there performing. You were at uh House of Jazz last night in Laval. I've not been to that venue, I've been to a couple of downtown places, jazz places, um, and um you it's just it's it's you and Glenn.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:59

So there's myself, we uh uh at the House of Jazz we we try to play with myself, Glenn on on uh on congas and percussion and uh uh Jean-Christophe Germain, who's from uh Martzinek in France, uh on violin.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:12

And it's a really interesting mix. So I even when I'm doing my covers there, I do some of my own music there, of course. But when I'm playing the cover songs, I rip the songs apart. I don't ever try to do the songs like the album. I do them for me in my style, in the key that I need to do them in. Sure. And then we kind of pull those parts in. And because it's he's not a fiddler, he's a violinist, and uh, and he's an he's an island violinist, he brings this really cool flavor. We're using congas instead of drums, which adds another thing, another sonic flavor. And then there's me who's got my own style, and it really works. It like it that's why we've been there for three years. They because we're the only we're the only act that's not soul pop jazz oriented there. But everybody loves us, and because they're like, what sound is this, you know? And uh, and so yeah, so we play there quite often and uh and uh as a trio. Glenn and I, depending on uh budget and sometimes stage size, uh, we'll play as a duo only uh in certain places because sometimes it just doesn't accommodate three musicians. Um and I do the occasional solo show. I'm doing more of that now that I'm not working, I'm just you know, playing music, so I I I need to fill the holes in, so I'll do more solo shows. And uh we do Club Meds. We uh we get to go to Club Med, uh Charlevoix, uh Punta Cana, Turks and Cagos, Cancun. Can't complain about that. Yeah. So that's kind of like my uh, you know, I might not have uh you know a company pension and uh a retirement fund, but I you know I get to go to these places and play music uh and and music has is afforded me the ability to do that, you know. So uh that's my retirement is you know, a few weeks down south, come back, play here. Uh we do a lot of corporate shows and uh yeah, private, private shows. I got a few few private ones coming up and and like and and House of Jazz uh at least twice a month, uh every month. So when's your next like upcoming uh I think uh we're off this weekend coming up, uh it which is rare, but but it's nice to have a weekend up on sometimes. It's kind of nice. Uh and then the following, I think the first we're at the House of Jazz, and then the fall uh which is a Saturday, and then the following Friday we're at the House of Jazz.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:34

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:35

And then we've got some some corporate shows, and I think we're playing uh we're playing in the in St. Anna de Bellevue on one of the outdoor stages at some point over the summer. Uh Ole Tapas in St. Anna de Bellevue. And uh I think we're doing a pub show at uh Glenn and I. I don't think we're gonna fit on the stage um that they have in the corner of Cunningham's in San Anna Bellevue. I don't know if you've ever seen the stage, but it's about oh yes, it's about as big as it's about as big as this table. And I think his congas may fit, but I won't. So I'll be having to squeeze in somehow there. But can that's we don't do too many of those shows because of these and it doesn't accommodate us, you know. Right, exactly. And uh and Glenn and I kind of we we drew a line in the sand uh when we started this. I said, you know, I I don't want was there was a lot of guys that undercut the other musicians who they would go out and play for fifty bucks and a meal and a beer. Yeah, and I said to Glenn, I can't I'm not doing it. And I said, be willing to turn down shows because I think that we are worth more. And eventually that's exactly what happened. We it paid off. We we get paid well, we we play you know nice shows, we uh we enjoy it, it's worthwhile for us to go out, and especially as as a professional musician who now that I mean that's all I do is play music. Um you know it's important. If I was still if I'd just accepted what they were gonna give me, I I wouldn't be surviving. You know, so yeah, you know, I mean, because honestly, when I w when I was 13 years old and we played we played uh a high school dance at John Rainy and we were at a trio and we got paid four hundred dollars. And that's what that's the maximum uh the local bar circuit will pay a band now.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:26

Now, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:27

And that was over 50 years ago. Yep. So you know it it's we haven't been treated well as a as a as a group of uh of wage earners.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:38

Yeah, I that was one of the first things I remarked on. So I played music all through the 80s, packed it up, stored all my gear in my parents' basement, and went back to school and didn't look back on it. But when I did get back into it in the mid-2000s, um and I was like, you know, go to get booked somewhere and oh well you're a three-piece band. Okay, well, we'll we'll give you 300 bucks, a hundred bucks ahead. I'm like, that's what I got paid in 1985, man. This is ridiculous, probably got paid more.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:13

Well, the thing we we we made more money back then because now the shows are are are one nighters. Whereas back in 1988, downtown, I would play Thursday, Friday, Saturday at Deja Vu, and then I would do Sunday to Wednesday at the Stanley pub. Yeah, and there were three, four-night gigs, and I was playing, I'd have one night off sometimes in a week, and I would just do that weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks on end. And so you could make more money because you could do front ends and you could do the weekends, and you and and you were playing multiple nights, so you could ask for more money. And uh when we used to play the Peel pub, it was a seven-night gig. Yeah, and they hired you on as a as an employee for the week, they even paid you four percent on the check, and they gave you a check at the end of the week, and you it was good money, you know. It's like then you go up north and play in a rundle and you know, at the commons and wherever else, and and there was money to be made, and now it's okay, we'll we'll hire you for one night, and uh we'll give you a hundred dollars and you get you get a burger, yeah, you have the limited musician's menu, yeah, and you can have two beers each. And you're like, wait, and what what and I finish at what time? Exactly. So and that's one of the nice things about House of Jazz is uh we do the early show because it's a double show. Yeah, it's yeah, it's just like you know, Michelle Sweeney came on after us last night and massive band, you know. Yeah, uh and we play six to eight on I'm home in my sweatpants at ten o'clock.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:36

That's fantastic. Yeah, I towards the end of gigging. Uh yeah, uh it was it was like so Thursday night, I'd be home watching TV with my wife, and it's nine, nine thirty, and I'm like nodding off. And like, oh shit, we only start at 10 tomorrow. Yeah, yeah. How am I gonna do it? Yeah, well, anyway, Keith, uh, we're gonna wrap it up. But thank you again so much for coming all the way out here. No worries, yeah. Enjoyed it. Mumfuck Egypt and St. Lazar. Enjoyed it, man. Um, yeah, and uh I I don't know where this is all going. Uh I I'm looking for different formats. You asked about playing live music, uh you know, bringing a guitar news. I'd like to get into that. Um we'll see how how it all pans out. And um, but in any case, the conversations are great. Thank you for sharing your your story and your what you're up to.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:27

And uh maybe you could start a writer's round, bring out a couple of us out here to and each talk about our songs.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:33

Oh my god, I'd be the I'd be the noob in the room. I'd be scared around.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:38

Yeah, but no, like bring out some of the guys, you know, Sean, myself, anyone else that's writing music, and we do one of these cat podcasts that's uh that it's a writer's round podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:47

And uh the the guy that Sean's playing with uh the Sean and Tom Tom, I have known Tom since high school. We learned guitar together, and we were the those kids, you know, just figuring things out in the basement. So yeah, that would be fun. It's been a while since I've had a group of musicians in here and uh that would be fun. I might hold you to that. Yeah. Um whether we record it or not. But uh thank you very much. Thank you. Enjoy the rest of your Sunday afternoon. Appreciate you. We'll talk to you soon. Cheers. All right, that's a wrap. Huge thanks to Keith Ford for pulling up a stool and hanging out. If you like what you heard, go check him out. Support local music, go to a show, buy some merch, make some noise. But before we go, one last check-in How's Your Stool. I'm Dave Randall, this is How's Your Stool, and we'll catch you next time. This has been a bandit Monterey production.